Baptists and Catholics: Visiting a Baptist Church

I took a visit to a Baptist Church in town. And I am from a Catholic background, so I was interested to see what differences there were between the two.

The traditional Catholic Mass is very structured. The mass is the celebration of the Eucharist, or communion, which is the celebration and remembrance of Jesus and of the Lord’s Last supper where he gave bread and wine to the disciples and told that it was his body and blood.

The Mass is very structured and has many parts. The part are separated into four categories: The Introductory Rite, The Liturgy of the Word, The Liturgy of the Eucharist, and The Concluding Rites. During The Introductory Rite, the priest greets the congregation and then as everyone participates in asking for God’s forgiveness. This is then followed by the Kyrie Eleison and the Gloria–Song’s claiming how glorious God and Jesus are–which are usually sung or chanted. There is then a short prayer called the Collect. The Liturgy of the Word consists of a reading from the Old Testament, a hymn, a reading from the New Testament, and then a reading from the gospel, which is then followed by a homily, where the priest essentially gives a speech, usually relating to the gospel reading. There is then a reading of a creed, usually the Apostle’s creed followed by prayer of the faithful, during which there are intentions for members of the local, national, and global community. The Liturgy of the Eucharist has many parts, but the most important part is the Eucharistic Prayer, where the bread and wine are consecrated as the body and blood of Christ. This is followed by a reciting of the Lord’s Prayer (The “Our Father”) and then the communion be given out to everyone in the congregation. The concluding Rite is essentially the time when members of the church can share about events happening happening in the community. The priest then blesses the congregation one last time and the priest then leaves while a hymn is played and everyone then departs. The Concluding Rite is very brief. Essentially, the whole mass leads up to the point of the transubstantiation, which is the central focus of each mass, as it is the sacrament of communion.

The Fox River Baptist Church in Appleton, Wisconsin

The day I visited the church, it was not a service during which they take part in the ordinance of The Lord’s Supper. The main focus of the service seemed to be the sermon given by the Pastor. During the sermon there were many references to the scripture, specifically the Gospels, and this particular church had a projector projecting the referenced readings behind the pastor as he talked. The sermon took up about 45 minutes of the hour and a half service, so it seems clear that it is an important part of the service. Another interesting aspect of this sermon, was that whenever the pastor made a strong point about the faith people are welcome to say “amen” out loud during the sermon.

During the first half of the service there was firstly a greeting from a community member and events happening in the community were announced at this time. Then all members of the congregation were allowed to greet each other for a few minutes. I was fairly nervous at this point, but everyone was being very welcoming and I met a lot of the members of the church. There were many songs sung and one reading from the book of Psalms before the Sermon started. Certainly there is less structure to the Baptist service than a Catholic one, and fewer symbolic actions and repeated phrases than a Catholic mass.

It is interesting to see how two different branches of Christianity have the same, yet different beliefs. Their beliefs are essentially the same, though they the differ in key areas such as baptism and the communion. It seems that they are both just two different paths to the same goal, and for these faiths, that goal is life with God.

Thanks to the Fox Valley Baptist Church for being so welcoming!

Baptists and Catholics: Creed

The Nicene Creed

Some Christian Faiths do not have a creed, like quakers and UUs. Though the Baptists might believe in some of the substance that is in a Creed like the Nicene Creed. The purpose of not having a creed is to not have a defined way of faith that is the same for everyone. Since the Baptist beliefs are based on the ideas of religious freedom from Roger Williams, it makes sense that the faith itself lets its followers guide their own. However they do believe the ideas expressed in the major Christian creeds, the Nicene Creed and the Apostle’s creed, but as a symbol of religious freedom, there is a lack of reciting creeds in the Baptist tradition.

Catholics closely follow creeds as is directed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is the official text containing the teachings that the Catholic Church follows. The CCC includes the profession of faith, the Celebration of the sacraments, Life Christ (like following the Commandments), and Christian prayer, like the Lord’s Prayer.

Apostle’s Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body,

and life everlasting.

Amen.

Baptists and Catholics: Evangelism

Nothing...

Sharing information about a certain faith with those who do not have the same beliefs. “Spreading the word of God” is an important part of the Baptist faith. The ABCUSA website states that Evangelism is: “Evangelism is a challenge and an opportunity. Even after 2,000 years of Christian ministry, tens of millions of persons throughout the world have not yet heard the Good News of salvation through Jesus Christ. The world is as much a mission field "ripe unto harvest" now as it was when Christ sent forth his earliest followers to reconcile a fallen creation to its Creator. Evangelism is the mission of sharing Christ and the truths He proclaimed with people who need to receive them.”

There is this idea that though most Americans are Christian, too many do not have a good basic understanding of Christian values and beliefs. And along with that, not enough of them are attending church every Sunday. Interestingly, there are evangelism workshops for Baptists training people in the art of winning over people towards Christ. Help people to learn how to talk about their faith. Sometimes media is used for evangelism, such as newspapers and advertisement. There are also evangelical efforts overseas with missionaries and volunteers.

Catholics do not support Evangelism as much as the Baptists, however it is a part of their religion. It is seen in some doctrine such as the Catholic Church Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which says Evangelism is "an inalienable right and duty, an expression of religious liberty ...”

Baptists and Catholics: Baptism

A key difference is their view on Baptism.

For Baptists, a person is baptized because they know they believe in Jesus Christ. An infant is not able to make a claim to faith or understand a faith entirely, and Baptists–and many other Protestants–see baptism as a public profession of faith. And this idea of Credobaptism as opposed to pedobaptism is major separating factor between the mainstream Christian and the Baptist. Baptism, for Baptists does not have a saving effect, unlike the idea in Catholicism that it wipes away the original sin. This idea of Baptism being for a public display of faith and not for salvation definitely separates itself from the tradition Christian view, and even farther back, it separates itself from the Old testament view seen in Judaism and more conservative Christian faiths where there must be baptism soon after birth so that salvation may occur. Often, Baptists will consider the infant baptism of someone who is converting to their faith to be without effect, and thus rebaptise them. Though they do not consider it a rebaptism because the infant baptism didn’t have an effect on them.

For Catholics, baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, referring to both personal sins and the stain of original sin. It is not often done with affusion, and when one is an infant. It is an essential sacrament, without it no other sacrament can be performed. It is essentially a gateway into the Church and being Catholic. Baptism is seen as a symbolic and literal death and rebirth. Catholics believe there is a true spiritual transformation happening during the baptism. For Baptists, it is seen as entirely symbolic, and for Catholics, it is seen as though the person is actually being reborn “with Christ.”

Baptists and Catholics: The Body of Christ

An interesting aspect of Baptists is seen in the lack of sacraments. If you type in the word sacraments on the search engine of the ABCUSA website, there are no results. What they do have that are the closest thing to sacraments are the two Ordinances: Believer’s Baptism and the Lord’s Supper. It is maintained that it is the faith of the individual that saves and supplies God’s grace and not the going through of the sacraments that supplies God’s grace to people.

The Lord’s Supper for Baptist and the Eucharist for Catholics are similar. They both involve are sharing of bread and wine with all the people in the congregation. However, there are some key differences. Baptists do not believe that the bread and wine are the body of Christ but rather that it is a time to remember Christ’s atonement, and a time of renewal of personal commitment. For Catholics, they believe that the bread becomes the actual body of Christ and the Wine becomes the actual blood of Christ. This is called the transubstantiation, and it is a key element of the Catholic faith.

Another difference is that, for Catholics, the sacrament of communion is examined every Sunday, and for Baptists, the Lord’s Supper it is a monthly or quarterly occurrence. Also, sometimes in Baptist traditions, the wine (or often grape juice) and the bread are taken in unison among all members of the faith. Another interesting note, is that among many protest faiths, there are lots of different names for the same, or similar things, this is no mistake. As they are protestant, they want to separate themselves from the mainstream and even other protestant faiths. So that is why they call it the Lord’s Supper because the Catholics call it the Eucharist. The names in and of themselves are symbols.

Baptist and Catholics: History

I have composed a Project comparing Baptists and Catholics. These two faiths share common Christian Beliefs and values, though they differ in Key areas. Please Enjoy. Lets start with a history of the two.

Roger Williams founded the first Baptist church in Providence, Rhode Isalnd 1638. Williams was a protestant from England, and was a proponent of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. He argued that when church and state mix, it essentially becomes forced worship. By the nature of protestant movements, there were many Baptist churches that were operating independently, going in different directions. Also by the nature of the Baptist movement, there was not a central governing body, because, unlike Catholics, they do not follow papal authority. One of the earliest of the large Baptist conventions was the Triennial Convention formed in 1814. 1845, Baptists from the south withdrew because the convention banned slave owners from becoming ordained missionaries and formed the Southern Baptist Convention.

The Northern Baptist convention was founded at Washington D.C. 1907. It was meant to bring a consistency among the separate Baptist groups all over the United States. The American Baptist Convention (as it was called from 1950-1972) was progressive for its time. involved in civil rights, progressive in its views of race relations. However they didn’t really give black members very much power, as was protested by black members in 1968. They were not allowed in decision making positions. Although their first black president of the convention was elected the next year.

Jesus handing to keys to heaven over to Saint Peter

The Catholic Church is the largest Christian group in the world with over 1.15 billion members. The Pope is the main authority. The Catholic traditions holds that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ during the 1^st century AD. The earliest members being the twelve disciples that Jesus had sent out to proclaim his teachings. There were a plethora of Christians at the time of the Roman empire who refused to join the pagan, rituals–and thus most public events. They were often harassed and persecuted. But a dramatic turn in Roman history occurred when Christianity was legalized in the 4^th century AD and in 380 Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire. Even after the fall of the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church still survived and spread all throughout Europe.

Throughout history they have been several schism as the church changed and society changed. The 11^th century schism between the West (Latin) and East (Greek) churches in Europe and the Protestant Reformation in the 16^th century are the two major schisms in history. Baptists originate from the soon after the protestant reformation when the separatists (from the Church of England) were migrating to North America claiming that the church was corrupt and misleading. Roger Williams is one of these separatists, who founded Baptists.

The Book of Abraham

The Book of Abraham is an interesting part of the Mormon doctrine. there is a lot of speculation about its validity. And rightfully so. There are definitely curious aspects in the writing of the book and curious aspects about the story of how it was written.

Many things are important in determining the validity of a text like this. Take look at the language. If there are many modern terms that would cause suspicion. Also, sometimes the writer might be trying to make it read as though it were old, and would over do it. Some instances of language that that are curious in the Book of Abraham are the use of the word "Heathen" (1:7) and the use of the phrase "and it came to pass..." (which is used 16 times). Another aspect to look at is ideas. If there are modern ideas, it is either way ahead of its time or this is a hint that the text is not as old as it is made out to be; or it is a hint the translation has been modified for some reason, such as to fit into certain ideas that the translator is bias towards. Something that sticks out is the nature of the eternal spirit discussed in chapter 3. God is telling Abraham that everyone is existent before their life on earth as a soul in a giant pool of souls. So, this gives the impression that each person is their spirit, which is controlling the body. This is an idea that is not explicitly addressed in the bible though it is the general feeling of Christians; it is a little more of a modern idea. Also, look at events or ideas in relation to time. If the story teller lives in a certain era, there should be no mention of technology or ideas that are unique to years after the story teller’s life. There is talk of astronomy in the book of Abraham, however this is accurate, because the Egyptians did observe the Moon, stars, and the sun.

Though some parts of the Book of Abraham might seem convincing, there are definitely aspects in the language, and historical-critical aspects that give the impression that this is is not in fact as old as it is supposed to be. It seems that possibly, Joseph Smith made this translation to fit his beliefs and the ideas that he wanted to portray to Mormons.

We Are North-A-meri-can

This was mentioned in my previous blog about Mormons, but I find the connection of Utopian societies and Mormonism fascinating. Utopian societies are attempts of many people living together under certain circumstances in hope that it will lead to an ideal, peaceful, harmonious living situation. And, maybe it's its not so much the Utopian societies themselves being compared to Mormonism, but rather the longing for meaning

 Mormonism seems as though (like most religions) an attempt at finding meaning for one's self and many events in history and everyday life. However, it seems like it is kind of a stretch. For example, the idea that Jesus made a visit to North America when he was from the Middle east. And claiming that the Native Americans are descendants of Laman and they are darker because they do not follow God. It's like the idea of applying a religion to one's life is taken even farther by making direct connections with historical events. Another aspect that is strange is that are some superstitious aspects, such as is found in 1 Nephi involving a gadget: “And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one pointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness” (1 Nephi 16:10). This is very unrealistic. Because truly, everything happens by chance. Much like is explained by scientist and writer Stephen Jay Gould in his essays; humans look for meaning in random things in nature. For example we look at the stars and we see creatures and if you are born in a certain month your life will go a certain way.

Humans do not like the uncertainty of life. And I feel that Mormonism is yet another attempt in the midst of an era when so many different groups of people are looking for the truth, to find meaning and truth in the world. The making of a direct connection from Christianity to North America and some of the strange and almost superstitious beliefs make Mormonism less believable.

Mormons and the 19th Century

The Book of Mormon is a very interesting book because of it's story of how it came about and the fact that it grasped so many people during the 19th and 20th centuries. The Mormon Faith is attractive to people at this time when so many groups are looking for the answers to life. It has structure and seems to have history that relates to already existing faiths.

One striking aspect found in Third Nephi in the Book of Nephi in Chapter 14 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (3 Nephi 14:15). At this time in American history, there were so many people looking for the right path to go down in life. This was the time that Utopian societies were popping up all over the place. Since this passage would have been written by Joseph Smith in the 19th century it makes sense that he would include this idea. All generations have their false prophets, and at this point in time its the utopian community. Many of these groups were religious societies where there was an attempt at ridding of superstitious though and they believed in science. The Mormon religion is attractive at a time when there are many different ideas floating around; with a seemingly structured belief based on already existing religion. It also gives explanation to the idea of Manifest Destiny.

The book of Mormon seems to lead itself to justifying the Genocide of Native Americans. At the point in time that this was written, there was about only half the states we have today and the rest were owned by European countries and populated by the Native Americans. Also at this time the Indian Removal Act of 1830 which is more famously known as trail of tears. 

"For I will make my people with whom the Father hath covenanted, yea, I will make thy horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass. And thou shalt beat in pieces many people; and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. And behold, I am he who doeth it. And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles." (3 Nephi 20:19-20)

This quote clearly promotes violence towards the Native Americans, and justifies it with the idea that violence is done in the name of the Lord, and that it's okay because they don't believe in the Right God.

Mormonism, though it has very questionable aspects, has aspects that make sense for the time in which it was developed. It makes sense even when you look at just a few aspects of Mormonism why this relates to the people of the 19th century.

Progressive Religion?

The Bahá'í faith is (as some sources claim) the second fastest growing religion in the world. And for a reason. When you break down some of the aspects of the Bahá'í faith you can see that it is a very progressive religion and has many features that are attractive to people of our modern world. The idea that the religion has the ability to evolve as well as other important details about the laws and teachings are the most attractive aspects of the Bahá'í faith.

One of the aspects of the religion that jumps out is how badly they are prosecuted against in the middle-east, in primarily muslim areas. This makes it a religion of losers, much like christianity; a religion where a prophet lives a lowly life and then is put to death. Bahá'u'lláh spent much time of his life in prison and was tortured. People naturally want to support the underdog, and this religion definitely hasn't had an easy time surviving. But of course this is not the only attractive part of this religion. The other intriguing aspect of this religion is that it has a progressive aspect. The messengers of God (the "Manifestations of God") have the ability to change a previous messengers teachings, and the idea that every time there is a new messenger, they become the central focus of the religion is something the differs from most religions. And this is definitely an aspect that seems to make a lot of sense, because times change and having a message relevant to the times is important. They recognize the messengers that Islam and Christianity follow, however they recognize that the teachings of their messengers will not always be relevant to the times. Not being stuck to the teachings of a messenger who lived over 2000 years ago, is a smart idea because it helps to make it relevant to the times and that makes it easier to apply the religion to peoples own lives.

This brings us to some seemingly very modern ideas in the Bahá'í faith. The equality of men and women is something that differs from the muslim religion which the Bahá'í faith essentially broke off of, and it is certainly attractive to many women in the world who are struggling for equality. Another attractive quality of the Bahá'í faith is the belief that science and religion should exist harmoniously. Nothing in science should contradict any aspect of the faith and nothing the faith should contradict any aspect of science. This is to many people a refreshing view coming from major religions that reject many aspects of science. And yet another aspect of he Bahá'í faith that seems particularly attractive to the modern world in which we live is the idea that as a member of the faith you are required to abstain from partisan politics. This would look to many like a refreshing view in our confusing and frustrating world of politics.

Now, I would not say the the Bahá'í is a perfect faith; for there are aspects that are going to drive many people away and are not progressive and are a bit odd and do not promote equality. For starters, only two people ever have seen the writings of Bahá'u'lláh, `Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, the general population of members is not allowed to interpret the scriptures. This is very very different from other religions and very much limits people's freedom to apply their religion to their own lives. The Bahá'í faith is also against homosexuality; it is prohibited to engage in any homosexual action. Clearly this makes it less appealing to those looking for a progressive faith and doesn't not go along with the idea of equality and justice which the faith stands for.

Though the Bahá'í faith has it's bad parts, it is (compared to many of todays major religions) a fairly progressive religion with some good ideas. And the fact that it has 6 million members in over 200 countries and is growing at a fast rate is an encouraging fact. 

Bahá'u'lláh and Armstrong

The views of Bahá'u'lláh and the views of Karen Armstrong expressed in her short YouTube video "Charter for Compassion"are very similar. Both are looking for a way to unify the faiths of the world to create a better place for everyone to live. However, the Bahá'i method of achieving this is through more of a spiritual view and Armstrong's view is through more of a political view.

The Bahá'i believe that there is a fundamental unity of many of world religions. They accepts this on the basis that the central figures of many of the world's religions are all manifestations of God. They believe that perhaps the different religions are different stages of the constant evolution of the one religion; like each religion has grabbed on to one messenger in the long line of messengers throughout history and has focused on their teachings. There will always be another messenger of God for every generation, who will present teachings more relevant to the times. They are able to change many of the teachings of the previous messenger, though some things that cannot be changed. Armstrong's view of the issue of the issue of unifying world religions comes from a more political approach with an absence of a focus on God and his messengers.

Armstrong says the task of our generation is to build a global community in which all beliefs can live together in peace and harmony. The best way of going about this is to follow the golden rule; love your neighbor; treat others as you would want to be treated. We need to change the conversation from a narrow understanding of religion resulting in intolerance, and the rage in religions against each other. She would like to see the golden rule implemented globally. This is definitely similar to what the Bahá'i strive for, just with a different approach, spiritual vs. political. The Bahá'i believe that the evolution of their religion comes over years in the messengers of God. However, Armstrong, I feel is promoting more of an evolution within the self, through compassion.

They are both different paths to the same goal.